THE INTERVIEW OF WEISER AND Cammerhof. 1747. To these events and the struggle for possession of the church we now turn somewhat more in detail. Going back to the Rieth funeral, let us hear Mr. Kurtz in his dairy:

"In order to blind the eyes of the adherents of the Moravian association, Mr. Spangenberg came to Tulpehocken and rebuked the brother for not leaving me into the church. Thereupon it was also resolved in writing that if I desired to preach in the church, they should open it for me, but not deliver the keys, until finally Bishop Cammerhof one day came to Tulpehocken and visited Weiser in order to speak of this matter, after Weiser had written to Bethlehem and warned or rather desired that they should help the Lutheran church at Tulpehocken again to be placed in possession of their church and property. At this time the conversation in Fresenius Amerikanische Nachrichten was held 3 Stück, No. 63."

The interview took place in the middle of May. Both the principals of this interview deemed it of sufficiently great importance to make a memorandum of the same, and an unusually good fortune has preserved no less than five accounts of the interview, two by Bishop Cammerhof, one by Weiser, one by Kurtz and by Kurtz and one by Muhlenberg. Several of these we are able to present now for the first time side by side with each other; the diary of Cammerungeschickt; dann sie haben vernommen dass die Leute sagten, wann die Bethlehemiter das gut hielten, so wolten sie nichts mehr mit ihnen zu thun haben, so haben sie müssen die Segel nach dem Winde richten, biss etwau die Leute wieder schlaffen gewieget würden: Es gingen aber wieder etliche von ihnen ab, und hielten sie vor keine Lutheraner, sondern Betrüger. Also blieben noch fünff oder Sechs ubrig, die ehemals unter; die obgemeldte Gemeine gehöreten-Weil nun das Pfarr-Hauss und die Kirche leer stund, hat die Lutherische Gemeine von Dolpehacken gut gedeucht, so wohl das PfarrHauss, als Kirche in Besitz zu nehmen, haben die Schlüssel etliche mahl vergeblich gefordert, musstens dahero aufbrechen; doch haben sie den Zinzendörffern den Tag gesagt, wenn sie es thun wolten: Ein Theil von der Zinzendörffer haben zugesehen. Sie hatten ein schwätzig Weib da, das hat mit dem 9ten Gebot um sich geworffen; aber niemand nahm sich ihrer an: die Lutheraner sagen das Land dass wir wieder erobert haben, ist unser Väterlich Erbe, und gehöret sonst niemand; unsere Feinde aber habens eine zeitlang mit Gewald und Unrecht innen gehabt, darum haben wir jetzt das Unsere wieder an uns gebracht, und niemand das Seine genommen. 1 Maccab. 15. 33. 34.

"(Sonst sind gemeiniglich zwey streitige Partheyen einerley Religion.)” — Sauer's Newspaper.

hof's visit having been furnished through the kindness of Mr. Robert Rau, archivarius at Bethlehem.

A letter of Cammerhof's, written June 29, 1747, furnishes an account of the same interview in still more graphic style, and this we also present, with Cammerhof's Diary and Weiser's Memorandum.

FROM CAMMerhof's DiaRY OF HIS LETTER OF Conrad Weiser in SepVISIT TO THE VARIOUS CON

658 This is all in the Diary, which relates to the Tulpehocken. Although written in the third person, it is in Cammerhof's own handwriting.—Rau. 65 9 Evidently the North Heidelberg Church, near the center of North Heidelberg-about three miles northeast or east by north of the Corner Church in Heidelberg township.-J. W. EARLY.

CAMMERHOF's Account.

Bro. Camerhof, on the other hand, told him that we never can and never will take any part in such an unjust proceeding in conflict with the clearest evidence [clear light of the sun]But that in other respects we would not meddle in any manner with the affairs of the Tulpehocken Church and that we left them perfectly free to manage their affairs to suit themselves. Afterwards Bro. Camerhof also had a conversation with Caspar Rieth, at present the only deacon of the Tulpehocken Church in regard to the views of Conrad Weiser, as well as those of the congregation at Bethlehem, in reference to their church affairs.

In company with bro. Neisser, he immediately went to Muehlbach, the same afternoon, 660

CAMMERHOF'S LETT ER.

WEISER'S ACCOUNT.

keep all in hand. When Leonhard Ried is buried and the man desires to preach in the church, then shall Caspar Ried on request unlock the door; but he must not give the key out of his hand. It was signed by Joseph Spangenberg, Michael Shaefer, Michael Ried, Peter Shaefer, Jacob Shaefer, George Lesch, John Schifler. I desired a copy of the writing, but he did not want to give me one.

I asked, if then the above mentioned people of the Lutheran Community of Tulpehocken decided, and they say and indeed not without cause, that they left the Lutherans and went over to the Moravian Brethren; and consequently they have no more right to the Lutheran church, land, and parsonage?

Kammerhof answered: They are better Lutherans than the others in every way, and they have bought with their money this land and built this church.

1747, June 29. May 26, went to C. Weiser and talked with him about the late trouble at Tulpehocken. He be- I said: Yes, they have either bought gan his story with what had occurred the land or received it a present for a in Leibecker's and Stover's times-Lutheran church, which was built on that he had always sought to cement it for twenty years, and also on which the unity of all Lutherans. For this a parsonage of the whole Lutheran purpose he had asked Zinzendorf for community has been built already for one preacher for all. Hereupon sev- twelve years. The landowners had so eral, such as Caspar Reith, Michael many acres measured off for a LuthSchaeffer, Michael Reith, etc., went eran church long before Count Zinand got a deed for the land on which zendorf, who passed himself as a the old church stood, demolished it Lutheran preacher, came to this land; and built a new one, and these were also this one, who promised to provide the only people we had given a pastor. a true Lutheran pastor for the Lutheran The other Lutherans had borne this community at Tulpehocken, wherelong in quiet, but would bear it no upon they then purchased the church longer, but would institute suit for land, not only that account deceived possession of the church, and said he, the Lutheran community, but kept with right, for it belonged to them, as Caspar Stoever away, as you must acthey had built and worshipped in the knowledge at this time. Not only did old church, before the land had all the Count not keep his word, but till been bought or taken up. Reith's et now burdened these people with seval were pirates, robbers, etc. He told eral incapable men as pastors, with me to tell them to give up the church, which only very few were satisfied, that if we did, they would at once give and also in thus far led the people in it up, etc. The holders of the deed were darkness, or, as they say in German, Michael Schaeffer, John Schaeffer, deceived. Fred. Schaeffer, C. Reith, George Loesch, Michael Reith and others. After these having bought the land, it was not theirs individually but held

Kammerhof answered: The people of Tulpehocken shall have no learned minister from us; for they came to us for carnal reasons.

660 Was this the vicinity of the present Muehlbach Church, or was it Newmanstown? From Weiser's house to the former would be six-eight miles to the latter about three-four.

J. W. EARLY.

WEISER'S ACCOUNT.

I answered: But examine our common law page 423, etc., which he read, but made such dishonest explanations of the same as were not becoming to one versed in the science of divinity, but as a one-sided advocate. I chastised his wrong. He answered: Dear Conrad! We have nothing to do with the church; it is only the people who are quarreling, believe me, we are innocent. I answered: Did you not just show, me a writing, which Spangenberg with another from Bethlehem signed, wherein it ordered Caspar Ried not to give out the church key. Beloved see, how false your speeches are.

Kammerhof: They may give the key if they want to, they may not ask us anything we want nothing to do with it.

I answered: Well, do you say so, or write it: here is paper. Then the strife will soon be over.

Kammerhof: We cannot advise you that they will do it, but they may do it; this would be as much as sending them back to the Lutherans again; How does Christ sound with Belial? What intercourse has light with darkness? What has righteousness to do with unrighteousness? What part has the believer with unbeliever? What likeness has the temple of God with the idols, etc., etc.

I answered: After that they went over to you for carnal reasons, thus, you may send them back again, and you will have more to deal with therein after the Count's Conference. See the first Conference. 661

Kammerhof: Dear Conrad! You are prejudiced against us. We love you very much, remain our friend, as you always have been.

I answered: I have never yet been your enemy; I have served the brethren in Bethlehem where I could, will also do it still; but your falseness, your ambiguous speeches, and your encroachment on other people's privileges, these I hate: A Christian must be an honest man, or he will have no influence or authority!

Kammerhof: Where have we encroached and dealt falsely?

I answered: First here at Tulpehocken. The Count promised me to write for an upright Lutheran minister from Halle for Tulpehocken. Afterwards he repeatedly promised these people an upright Lutheran minister, but kept none.

You have sought to deceive the Swedish Lutherans on account of a church. Likewise the Lutherans in Lancaster; likewise here in Tulpehocken. Do you not recollect the trick which the Count played in Philadelphia when he took the church book of the Lutherans and wished to deceive them about it, and it had to be taken from him again by means of a Court decision? All these things displease me with the Moravian brethren. They have lately done the same thing with the Lutheran Church book at Lebanon but finally will lose their credit with the government, and bring themselves into trouble.

Many other statements were made. Kammerhof pretended to be a good Lutheran; but yet he said he did not belong to the Lutheran Church. Here in Pennsylvania there is no Lutheran consistory, therefore people cannot judge them; the Bishop at London was the judge here: but they had their own ecclesiastical court which the Saviour guided. At this he asked me whether I could believe that the congregation at Bethlehem was innocent in the matter of this present church controversy? I replied: no, I regard it as the originator of the strife and that I shall regard the Bethlehemites as persons who hold fast to unjust property until they return it again, for, said I, it is an open church robbery and added:

Sie sind von ihnen nicht gestift.

Die Schätz der Kirchen sind ihr Gift,

Among other things in this conversation I said to him: I was not at all pleased with the Brethren because they pass once as Lutheran, again as Reformed and again as Moravians.

He asked: Which of them did it?

I replied: Lischi represents himself as a true Reformed minister. He answered: You are right in this, we have told him about it. I especially said to him: You are no Reformed Minister but our brother, you deceive the people. We shall tell the people that you are our brother and no Reformed Minister.

This I have sketched in great haste only briefly: but still according to pure truth. In future I shall clear up the circumstances connected with it. CONRAD Weiser.

(From Fresenius' Bewährte Nachrichten, Dritter Band, p. 822, ff.)

THE RIETH CHURCH TAKEN BY THE LUTHERANS. SUMMER AND FALL OF 1747.

Following this fruitless interview of Weiser with Cammerhof in the early summer of 1747 there was much ill

661 The Count had promised them that they should be preached to without pay.