Secretary RUSK. You know we have 20,000 Koreans engaged in combat there. We have the Australian-New Zealand combat team which is in combat there. There are other forces involved in various aspects of it. The bulk of it continues to be carried by the South Vietnamese.

Yes; we are disappointed that more forces from more countries are not present on the scene.

AID PROVIDED BY INDIA

Senator MUNDT. Let me ask you one or two specific questions in that area. Is India included in that group of 32 nations? Secretary RUSK. She has made some contribution but it is a relatively-India has provided cloth for flood relief. Under study is the preparation of facilities for tea and sugar, and she has considered sending equipment for the blood transfusion center.

Senator MUNDT. Some cloth and some blood. That is the limit? Secretary RUSK. Thus far; yes, sir.

MILITARY ASSISTANCE TO INDIA IN 1962

Senator MUNDT. Let me ask you what happened back in 1962 when India had some pretty rough going, as I recall, with the Red Chinese when they were attacking her borders. At that time we provided some direct military assistance, did we not?

Secretary RUSK. Yes; we and Britain joined to provide certain assistance to India at that time.

Senator MUNDT. Nehru was then the leader, was he not?
Secretary RUSK. That is correct.

Senator MUNDT. Did Nehru ask the United States, through an appeal to President Kennedy at that time, for air protection?

sir.

Secretary RUSK. There was some discussion of that at that time,

Senator MUNDT. That is very evasive, Mr. Secretary.

Secretary RUSK. I beg your pardon?

Senator MUNDT. That was evasive. Either Nehru asked for air assistance or he did not.

Secretary RUSK. Senator, we are in open session. I could go into closed session. It is not proper for me to go into communications with chiefs of government on matters of that sort in open session.

Senator MUNDT. Well, let me put it this way: Did the United States provide some air protection for India at that time?

Secretary RUSK. We provided some transport aircraft, as I recall. I would have to refresh my memory on whether there was more air support than that at that point.

We also assisted in certain air defense measures, such as radar, things of that kind.

Senator MUNDT. There are some things that have to be off the record but I cannot expect you to present in detail or remember in detail, but will you search your memory and the record and put in the record at this time whether we did provide some protection and aircraft carriers and planes at that time?

Secretary RUSK. I will, sir.

(The information referred to follows:)

U.S. MILITARY ASSISTANCE TO INDIA DURING 1962 BORDER INCIDENTS WITH COMMUNIST CHINA

The United States provided U.S. Air Force transport aircraft for a short time to help India move troops and supplies, and in addition provided directly some military equipment to the Indian Government. The United States did not provide air protection, i.e., combat aircraft, but discussed air defense arrangements. In 1963, an air defense agreement with India was signed under which, later that year, planes and personnel from the Royal Air Force, the U.S. Air Force, and the Indian Air Force conducted an air defense exercise in India at the request of the Indian Government.

Senator MUNDT. Second, it is correct, is it not, that we would not have provided that kind of protection at that time without being asked by somebody in India for some assistance? We did not go around looking for a chance to spread ourselves into new areas of dissention, I hope?

Secretary RUSK. Whatever we did was with the full consent and with the-in accordance with the wishes of the Indian Government; yes, sir.

Senator MUNDT. Well, I would kind of like to relate that to this discussion we are having about North Vietnam. I understand we are not just going out voluntarily pushing our way into Vietnam. We are doing that in response to a request from the Saigon government. Secretary RUSK. That is correct, sir.

Senator MUNDT. And I would like to think that we are not in this situation in a different posture than we were in India from the standpoint of the initiation of the support. I like to think whatever we are doing is consistent with the American policy, and I am a little disappointed that you give the impression that we have to push ourselves into any kind of conflict without being asked, and if we did it in India, we maybe did it here.

Secretary RUSK. No; I did not in any way intend to leave that impression. Throughout the course of the morning I have pointed

out

Senator MUNDT. You left that with me in response to that last

answer.

Secretary RUSK. Yes. We do not go about looking for business in this matter. We have specific commitments, and we follow as best we can the national interests when particular situations arise.

I just did not want to get into communications among chiefs of government in an open hearing. That was the only reluctance I had, Senator.

Senator MUNDT. Without going into the details of the specific communication

Secretary RUSK. India asked us.

Senator MUNDT. I am a little disenchanted with all this kind of superduper secrecy about a peacetime operation. I begin to realize why we do not get any better responses from our supposed friends, why we do not get better books and occasionally go around and say, "Look, we recall in November 1962 that Mr. Nehru asked the President of the United States for air protection and we gave it." Those are the facts. And those being the facts, and those facts becoming known in India, it has to follow there is a better chance to get the great populous country of India to provide manpower and support and even men, which, as you know, has been advocated by some speakers in the Indian Parliament. If the Indian people know that is the fact, that is going

to help us. If you shroud it in all this secrecy in every instance when we responded to a request, no wonder we cannot induce the people of India and France and Britain to feel they have an obligation now as a quid pro quo to do something to assist us, because we are doing this, I am convinced, for no selfish purpose as far as the United States is concerned. This is in the interest of world peace.

But I think we should have it a little clearer in the record if we are ever going to get off of dead center, you must be as concerned as I am, and that this committee is, and the country is, to get from other countries more support in a great contest which, if it goes wrong, could be of more immediate danger to India than to us. So they might feel they have an obligation to do something beside contribute blood to a blood bank and a little cloth.

Whatever our problems are, Mr. Secretary, in South Vietnam, they are not because of an absence of cloth or a shortage of cloth. That is not of very direct aid to winning the victory.

Secretary RUSK. Well, our effort on this is primarily working with governments in the ways in which governments usually work together. We have not attempted to take this up with a country like India through the media of public opinion. We would like to have more assistance in South Vietnam from more countries and a great many different types of assistance.

Senator MUNDT. To get that, don't we have to create a public opinion in those countries in support of our proposal?

Secretary RUSK. I think our proper procedure from the point of view of the Government is to take this matter up with other govern

ments.

Senator MUNDT. I yield.

CONTRIBUTION OF TROOPS BY AUSTRALIA

The CHAIRMAN. Just in that connection, last fall I made a very mild remark that the Australians might consider a little larger contribution, and the very next day-I do not know whether it was yousomeone in the administration, sent Prime Minister Menzies a congratulatory telegram of reassurance of how much we appreciated their wonderful contribution. It did not evidence to me any great concern about trying to get any more help. I thought I was trying to help you get a little bit more, but they took exactly the opposite view up here in Washington.

Do you remember that, Mr. Secretary?

Secretary RUSK. Yes, sir; I do. I think your remark was interpreted in Australia as minimizing and deprecating what they were doing.

Senator GORE. That is what he intended.

The CHAIRMAN. I thought it was very little; 1,300 men, I believe they have. This is a very prosperous country, close to the southeast Asia area. If anybody would be interested in helping, I would think it would be the Australians for their own self-interests aside from this overall problem of freedom, protection of freedom. I have great admiration for the Australians. But I do think that they are not making a very burdensome contribution with only 1,300 men.

They challenged me. They said this was just as much relative to population as we were making. My arithmetic did not seem work out that way, and there was a little difference in view about that.

to

That is all I wanted to say. I did not think we were exerting ourselves much to increase our contribution.

I am sorry, go ahead, Senator.

NEED FOR GREATER FREE WORLD PARTICIPATION

Senator MUNDT. You have the same problem in India and in France and in West Germany and in Japan and in Great Britain, Mr. Secretary, that you have here. Whenever there is uncertainty on the part of our populace or Members of the Senate or the House as to the reasons why we are doing something, there is a tendency to hold back. There is a lot of consultation by petition, by resolution and by statements now because there is a developing uncertainty in this country among the people as to what this is all about.

Well, now, one, I think we have got to get a clear-cut understanding from the people for a long time we had pretty well in this country— which is getting confused because the leadership of the country is becoming more vague in its approach to these things. But I do not see how, unless we can help bring the world into this thing, the people of the world, in free, democratic countries like India and Britain and France, West Germany and Japan, they have got a stake in this, so that they can begin to realize that when they come to us and ask for legitimate assistance and it is provided, there is nothing wrong in the world for their leaders to provide a little assistance on our behalf.

But you say if we won't let the people in the country knowyou said we should talk to the leaders.

Secretary RUSK. I beg your pardon, Senator. Our role here in the executive branch of the Government is in dealing with the heads of other countries. I hope all of these countries will listen to what you said today and think about it. But if I were to pursue this line of discussion with respect to individual countries, I would get in the way of what you and I would hope to accomplish in this direction. We cannot do this, I cannot do this, now in open session. You can, but I

cannot.

Senator MUNDT. Let me give you an illustration. I have here a page from the record of the Indian Parliament where one of the Indian parliamentarians was making what I felt was a real fine, courageous plea for support of his Government for us. He said:

I wondered why such a big country as ours, India, cannot afford to set aside and maintain at our cost, say, a brigade of Indian troops for the United Nations peacekeeping force ready to go anywhere in the world, even to Vietnam, if necessary?

What happens? The Government of India denies that they ever asked any help from the United States and ever got it. Now, the facts are clear. But the people, because we failed to present the facts, are going to believe their statesmen even though it was based upon misinformation. I do not think maybe this fellow intended to misrepresent it, but it was based upon misinformation. But whether he lied deliberately or made a misstatement because he did not research the record, the effect is the same if it goes unchallenged.

Secretary RUSK. Some months ago the President of India proposed that there be organized a peacekeeping force among Afro-Asian countries, perhaps under the U.N. auspices, to keep the peace in the south Asian situation.

We thought that was a very interesting and positive proposal, and indicated a very direct interest to it.

Peiping and Hanoi just brushed it aside with vilification. They would have nothing to do with it. But there was an interesting proposal from India in that direction.

Senator MUNDT. Have we asked India directly, as you have asked, I know, many other countries, to step up its support of this free world effort in Vietnam by supplying some manpower?

Secretary RUSK. Well, Senator, I really

Senator MUNDT. Or is that something you cannot tell us?

Secretary RUSK. I really do not think I should get into particular countries or particular types of assistance under the circumstances. The South Vietnamese Government has asked a considerable number of countries for help in the first instance. We have strongly supported that and have talked it over a great many times with many different governments. We hope more help will be forthcoming. We hope many countries will do more than they are doing and within the limits of what they find it possible to do, both from the point of view of resources and the point of view of their own internal situations. Many of them have extremely difficult internal situations, as do we at times. But I do not think I can pursue this on a country-by-country basis under the circumstances.

Senator MUNDT. Well, all I can say on that is if the people of the United States and the Members of the Senate cannot find out what our policy has been in that connection, it is a sure shot bet that the people of those democratic countries know nothing about it, and I think I am beginning to realize why our results have been so abysmally bad in getting the kind of support we should have.

Secretary RUSK. There is no problem about the policy.

The policy is that we and the South Vietnamese would welcome the broadest range of support from as many countries as possible and the widest range of means of assistance, including men.

Senator MUNDT. Right. But you are never going to get, Mr. Secretary, get help winking at the leaders in the dark. You have got to let the people know what is going on, I believe.

Secretary RUSK. I doubt that I can move this very far by making speeches rather than working with them in foreign offices and with their governments. The time may be when the combination of what you are saying

Senator MUNDT. We have tried for some time, and we have come up with some cloth and some blood. We can get along without that. We ought to come up with something better, and I think we ought to use a different approach. But if you do not want to discuss it, you need not discuss it.

The CHAIRMAN. Is that all?

Senator Church.

Senator CHURCH. Mr. Chairman, in connection with other countries, it seems to me that you have tried very hard to enlist the support of other countries in ways that are open to you as the Secretary of State.

If other countries have not responded, I think it is not due to any mistake in tactics on your part, but because those countries, for their own reasons, either see the war differently than we do, and do not think their vital interests require them to participate, or feel that we