Ambassador GOLDBERG. Senator, I believe that activities in the south continued, our activities and the Vietcong activity but that really Mr. McNamara knows a lot more about that than I do and perhaps that might be addressed to him. But I am under the impression that the bombing stopped but war activity on all sides in the south continued. U.S. ATTITUDE TOWARD INFILTRATION IN THE SOUTH Senator MORSE. I want to make this point clear. North Vietnam hasn't been bombing_the_south. North Vietnam hasn't been killing American troops or South Vietnamese troops with North Vietnam bombs on any such bases as we are operating in the north. They have fairly little air power and naval power. We have to be fair about this, as much as I hate the enemy, recognizing the fact that neutral countries look with favor on our position that if we stop the bombing, they ought to stop the infiltration. They take the position the north has a right to be where it is. They take the position that they have the right to move into South Vietnam to protect a Vietnam against what they consider to be a complete record of illegality that characterizes us from the time we refused to sign the accords and proceeded to support what I have said so many times, the first puppet government in South Vietnam. Ambassador GOLDBERG. I am sure you would welcome this consideration of the problem and I am sure you noticed that if you will notice the revised resolution we have been considering; we not only talked about complete cease-fire and disengagement. We also dealt in paragraph (b) with the problem of introducing new military personnel, and you earlier commented on that, I think. Senator MORSE. Yes. That is why I think this proposal that you are making this morning is so important. That is why I think your statement is going to be of great historic importance. Here we are proposing beyond any doubt that we want to reconvene this Geneva conference. As your testimony shows, that doesn't limit it to its old membership, it can be new membership. It doesn't stop the Security Council from in effect passing the responsibility to a reconvened conference. NEGOTIATIONS WITH THE COMMUNISTS I just think it is a sad thing that we didn't do it three years ago. I want to say that I shall always be of the opinion that this change of position from our earlier opposition to a reconvening of the Geneva conference, expressed in statements from the State Department in opposition to those of us who proposed it, that we were proposing to negotiate with Communists-of course we were proposing that. You have to do it; let's face up to it. You are not going to have peace without negotiating with them. But we have had a great change and I shall always be of the opinion that the statesmanship of our Ambassador to the United Nations has had a lot to do with the change. SEATO AND U.N. CHARTER AS BASES OF OUR MILITARY OPERATION My last question, Mr. Ambassador, refers to a speech of October 17 of the Under Secretary of State, Mr. Rostow, with reference to the United Nations Charter. I quote: We are in Vietnam because we are obliged to be there specifically by the SEATO treaty and generally by the United Nations Charter itself. I eliminate the reference to the SEATO treaty. That is primarily a State Department matter and not within your jurisdiction. My views are well known. There isn't the slightest basis of our military operation in Vietnam because of the SEATO treaty. We had a group of international lawyers here the other day that I thought buried that fallacy of the State Department once and for all. I do not have a right, I think, to ask you the question as to whether or not you think we are obliged to be there specifically and generally by the United Nations Charter and if we are, what is there in the United Nations charter that obliges us to be there in South Vietnam with over a half million men carrying on an undeclared war? Ambassador GOLDBERG. I hope the Chairman and the members of the committee will permit me to say that I have been so busy writing speeches that I haven't had a chance to read this one, and I Senator MORSE. You haven't missed anything. Ambassador GOLDBERG. And I hope Mr. Katzenbach and Mr. Rostow will understand the spirit in which that has been said. We have been so busy on the Middle East, I don't want to comment on a speech that I really haven't read. Senator MORSE. That is satisfactory to me. It gave me an opportunity to pay my disrespects to the speech. [Laughter.] The Chairman. Senator Gore.? ENCOURAGED BY PRESENT U.S. POSITION Senator GORE. Mr. Ambassador, I think I take some encouragement from your appearance here today. I think it is an advance toward a peaceful settlement when you endorse the resolution on behalf of the President. I think you have made another advance when you say the Administration is willing to vote for a resolution even though it includes an invitation for the National Liberation Front and the North Vietnamese if that vote is necessary to inscribe it on the agenda. So I take encouragement from your appearance. GENERAL ATTITUDE TOWARD OVERSEAS CHINESE I would like to ask one thing, not that I wish to make any speech to you, but to clarify a statement I made earlier. You and I have both traveled in Southeast Asia before this war. Both of us have read about it and developed some knowledge of it. I take it you know how unpopular the so-called overseas Chinese have been throughout this region, and how Chinese dominance has been resisted for hundreds of years, particularly on the part of the Vietnamese. Now, this was the background of the statement, the view I expressed earlier, that if we had in the earlier stages of this unfortunate episode chosen to support genuine self-determination of all of Vietnam, what ever that determination might be, that though a Communist regime may have emerged as a majority will, it need not follow that it would be a Red Chinese satellite-any more than Albania is a Moscow satellite or Yugoslavia is, either, a satellite of Moscow or Peking. It is within that context that I said I thought we had made a basic error. What we are doing is driving Vietnam into the embrace of Red China. I only want to clarify that position. You are free to make a comment, but I don't really solicit it unless you desire. Ambassador GOLDBERG. Well, all I would say about that is in my General Assembly speech again delivered for the Government, the only way I can deliver speeches, I said that we would abide by the results of the choice. We have discussed what the choice ought to be. Senator GORE. Yes. Ambassador GOLDBERG. And I said that could go to the Geneva conference. Senator GORE. Thank you for your appearance. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Ambassador, you know the committee very much appreciates this testimony. I think it has been extremely helpful and we are deeply in your debt for coming here and meeting with us in public. Ambassador GOLDBERG. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and members of the committee. The CHAIRMAN. The committee is adjourned. (Whereupon, at 12:25 p.m., the committee recessed, subject to call of the Chair.) Aiken, Senator George D.: Examination of witness: Goldberg, Hon. 167-170 Attitude of General Assembly toward U.S. responsibility in Vietnam war- 167 164 Attitude of other U.N. members toward the United States.. 6, 32 Attitude of Security Council members toward debate_ 156 Attitude of United States toward inviting China, NLF, and Vietcong to 174 Basic principle of U.N. Charter__ 93 Bases of our military operations, SEATO and U.N. Charter__ 201 Cambodia complaint to U.N. in 1964.... 151 Case, Senator Clifford P.: Examination of witness: Cohen, Benjamin V_ 5 Cease-fire arrangements_ 8 Cease-fire control commission, report of.. 118 Cease-fire, initiation of steps to achieve. 103 Comments of Hanoi, Peking, and NLF on U.N. involvement. Communist attitude toward settlement under the Geneva accords. Communist Vietnam, Soviet Union wants a-- 26-28 88-90 7 158 109 182 190 189 Cooper, Senator John Sherman: Examination of witness: Cohen, Benja- thur J.. Extent of discontinuing the firing- Facts of international life___ Formulation of U.S. Vietnam war policy, participation in French opposition to internationalizing of war.. General Assembly action, effect of.... General Assembly, taking the problem to the General attitude toward overseas Chinese__ Geneva Conference: Expanding membership of reconvened_ Reconvening of Gore, Senator Albert: Examination of witness: thur J.___. Great Powers have violated their obligations.. Hanoi, attitude of, during 1965 bombing pause.. Examination of witnesses: Gross, Ernest A.. Historical anti-Chinese attitude in Vietnam. 24 85 170 72 Fulbright, Senator J. W.: Examination of witness: Goldberg, Hon. Ar- Ideological concept behind fight in Vietnam. 188 Importance of getting Soviet agreement in U.N_ 104 Impotence of U.N. reasons for.. 46 Infiltration in the south, U.S. attitude toward_. 200 Influence of world opinion_. 123 Inscription debate to place matter on Council agenda_ 154 Invasion of South Vietnam, recognition of North Vietnam. Juridical grounds for United States being accused of charter violation__ Lausche, Senator Frank J.: Examination of witnesses: Cohen, Benjamin V_ Goldberg, Hon. Arthur J.. Legal aspects of Vietnam situation are controversial_ Legal commitment versus a legal right__. Legal issue of whether Vietnam united or not.. Legal procedure for putting Morse proposal into action__. Mansfield, Senator Mike: Examination of witness: Goldberg, Hon. Arthur J. 170 |